EP145: Ojisan Relaxing Station - How to Hire Without Resumes

All-In Recruitment is a podcast by Manatal focusing on all things related to the recruitment industry’s missions and trends. Join us in our weekly conversations with leaders in the recruitment space and learn their best practices to transform the way you hire.

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

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Lydia: Welcome to the All In Recruitment podcast by Manatal, where we explore best practices, learnings, and trends with leaders in the recruitment space. If you like our content, please subscribe to our channels on YouTube, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts to stay tuned for our weekly episodes. 

I'm your host, Lydia, and rejoining us this week is Mark Laothavornwong, who is the founder and CEO of Ojisan Relaxing Station. Mark is also fondly known as Uncle Bear. Thanks for coming back and joining us, Mark.

Mark: Hi, Lydia. Thanks for inviting me back again. It's been a while.

Rooted in Bangkok, Aiming for Asia

Lydia: Indeed. Three years or so, I think. So, first of all, congratulations on your new business. You moved from HR into the service sector. Tell us a bit more about this business.

Mark: Sure. It's actually quite a huge change for me. I used to work as a career coach, and I helped people find what they wanted to do. As a career coach, of course, I wanted to have something, a job that I really loved to do. That's why I created Ojisan Relaxing Station. Basically, I'm trying to build a relaxing place for someone like you or me.

Any professionals who work hard, entrepreneurs, or parents just want to find a place where they can relax and find some downtime, where they can regain balance for themselves. For example, from the days I used to work in Human Resources, I learned that many of us experience a lot of stress.

The stress builds up in our neck, shoulders, and back, and we develop muscle knots. This place specializes in clearing muscle knots for people like us who work a lot. We aim to expand and grow to around 60 branches in the next five years.

That's being done by reselling to franchisees.

Lydia: How many branches do you have right now?

Mark: We have got three branches right now.

Lydia: All of them are in Bangkok?

Mark: Yes, we have two branches, one in Nonthaburi and one in Silom, downtown. It has been two years and two months now. We are trying to grow as much as possible.

We built three branches to establish a foundation, to show that our concept is proven, and that people enjoy the experiences here. They come in and leave feeling lighter and a little bit better. We are trying to bring this not only to Thailand, but also to other countries, especially in the Asia-Pacific region.

Hiring Beyond the Resume: A New Kind of Talent Search

Lydia: Now, you're also in a highly competitive sector, and it's in the heart of Bangkok. You can imagine how many other businesses you have to compete with. What has that experience been like for you, transitioning from a Human Resources and career coaching background into running a business in such a competitive space?

Mark: Yes. As I mentioned, I started this because, when I was younger, my story was that my mom brought me to a massage shop. I felt tired a lot, and my muscles felt sore. That’s when my mom introduced me to massage. So I grew up getting a lot of massages.

That’s why, when I went to the United States, I learned how to massage people. I have not told anyone this before, but when I went to the United States for my MBA, at the same time, when I was not studying, I started my own massage studio and gave people massages. That’s how I discovered I really enjoyed doing it. It was my little business back then. I never thought that I would do it again.

I came back to Thailand and worked in Human Resources for over ten years. After COVID, I found it was the right time for me to start my own brand, to build a brand, and do something I love. I chose the spa and massage business.

In the massage and spa industry, you have to manage a lot of people. I feel that Human Resources is something that can really help with running this kind of business successfully, because your product is your people, your therapists.

Lydia: Interesting. In what ways did your Human Resources background, or what are the skills or competencies that you brought to your current role as founder and Chief Executive Officer? What did you transfer to this role when building this company?

Mark: Everything. In terms of career development, I chose something I wanted to build for my whole life because I realized that we only have one life, and we want to make it worthwhile. So, we need to choose something we love doing.

That was the first thing. When I started, we started from scratch. It was only my brother and me, and that was it. We recruited a lot of therapists. These are the kinds of people I never imagined recruiting, because they are not like office workers. You cannot just go online, check job boards, and hire them easily.

It is not easy to hire people in this field. I would call it different from recruiting white-collar employees.

Finding Talent Where Résumés Don’t Exist

Lydia: So, how do you find the people that you need for your business?

Mark: Therapists, right? It is a completely different way of recruiting people. I went to Facebook groups. These individuals do not have résumés, and they do not want to go through lengthy interviews. So, the way I find them is mostly through Facebook groups, as about 95% of them come from there. I feel like that’s just the nature of finding this kind of person, the therapist.

There are a lot of challenges in finding them. Since they do not have résumés, when we interview them and ask where they have worked before, they often do not want to tell us. I guess maybe because they do not want to reveal where they worked. They may be afraid that we are going to check on them.

The nature of this recruitment is totally different from what I have done before. But, of course, since I was in Human Resources and worked as a recruiter, I have the ability to adapt myself to whoever I am recruiting. I have to make sure that it is the right fit for them. I focus on how to get people into my candidate pool and eventually hire them. The methodology is the same.

It is not only the recruiting experience that I bring into running this business, but also the development aspect. How do you train them and help them become better? How do you retain them? Honestly, it is not easy at all to retain this group of people. It is just a different nature.

Lydia: So, what’s your approach to not just attracting them, but also keeping them and helping them grow in your business?

Mark: It is not easy, but there are always ways to approach it. In my approach, I try to find people who are similar to me. I look for people who are not just focused on money. The reason I am doing this kind of business is not because I want to be rich, but because I love this industry and I enjoy building it.

I am looking for people who share the same values, work hard, want to grow in the long term, and not just focus on short-term gains. I have ended up retaining some people I love working with. But of course, many have left the company. Some just care about money. Some do not follow the rules and lack discipline.

For me, I care about discipline. I want people to follow the rules, respect others, and be humble. I want them to always feel like they have a “glass of water”—in other words, they should always be learning every day. Those are the kinds of people I want to work with.

That is how I retain them, by focusing on those values and sharing our vision for the future. This is where we are going. We are not just going to have only three branches and stop. We have a long way to go.

Lydia: Yes. So they share your ambitions and your goals for the business itself, and they do not just operate as individual therapists.

Mark: Exactly. And it is not just therapists. I have hired front desk staff, my assistant, and others who work in the back office. I always ask them: Do you want to work for a yacht or a rocket ship? If you want to work for a big yacht, yes, it is nice and luxurious, but the way you grow with them may not be as fast.

Since we are a very small, tiny rocket ship, with only about 30 people right now, we are going to grow fast and expand a lot. Maybe one day you can become the owner of a branch. I am selling franchises, and I have told them that if they want to buy my franchise, they will get a discount. They do not have to pay me everything right away. They can pay later or work out another arrangement.

These kinds of things attract them because they know that if they work for a bigger company, the chance to grow into becoming a business owner or a boss will take longer. So, it is a very different approach.

The Culture Will Evolve—And That’s the Plan

Lydia: You mentioned earlier that you need to have a shared vision to be able to build a business together and stick with it. It seems like you're building a tight culture in the business. How would you describe that culture, maybe in a few words, and how do you intentionally shape it?

Mark: Okay. I used to think of culture as something that reflects the personality of the company. Since I started my own business, I’ve learned a lot, especially by applying my Human Resources background to this company.

At first, I built it with defined values. Our slogan or tagline is “Win Together.” I would say, “Win Together,” but in reality, applying that and building culture based on my personal vision—as a founder—was harder than I expected. It’s important to build from yourself, of course, but when you try to apply that to other people, especially those who have different values or ideas, it becomes much more difficult.

That’s why I now let it flow, instead of forcing everyone to follow exactly what I initially set. I create a framework or parameter for how we want things to be done, but there is always some flexibility.

Recently, I came up with another idea—I call it “Growing Every Day”—because at the heart of how I run this business is growth. I built this company to grow. If someone wants to join, they should want to grow as well.

But, as you know, many people in the service industry do not always look for long-term growth. So, it is still difficult for me. That does not mean it is impossible—it is possible to find people who share the vision of what I want to build.

But, to answer your question directly: there is no clearly defined culture, at least not yet.

Lydia: It is an organic one that is evolving. Is that how you would put it?

Mark: Evolving. Maybe, who knows, in the next year it might change again. But for now, I always tell people who want to join us that we are looking for individuals who want to learn every day. Someone who truly thinks about the future, who understands they have only one life and wants to make it matter, to make it worthwhile.

If that’s the case, they can come aboard my rocket ship and grow with me. I take care of them. And if they want to eventually have their own rocket ship, they can just tell me. I can support them in building that too—maybe by using Ojisan Relaxing Station as a franchise, whether in their hometown or elsewhere. I am happy to help.

What to Keep, What to Leave Behind

Lydia: Now, this is a very important question, Mark. What was your biggest misconception about building teams? I know you mentioned a few earlier, but what was your biggest misconception before you became a CEO?

Mark: Oh, this is a good question. Maybe before I started Ojisan Relaxing Station, I had a lot of experience in HR. I always thought I should have an advantage, so I wanted to apply a lot of what I had learned, both in Thailand and abroad.

But when I tried to apply everything I had learned to my company, Ojisan Relaxing Station, I found that it does not work that way. It does not matter whether you have ten or twenty years of experience, because each company, each industry, is a completely different story.

What I can do, though, from those experiences, is build my ability to curate—identify what can be used, what can make it work, and what is suitable for this specific type of industry and this company.

Lydia: So, when you speak about curation, Mark, is there a specific process that you have put in place so that you're building on the knowledge you now have as a Chief Executive Officer and founder? Is there a specific process you've started to keep that going?

Mark: Not really. Even though I had a lot of experience in Human Resources—and of course, maybe I had some ego because of that—when I talk about curation, I mean that when you are working for a specific company, in a specific industry, doing a specific type of work, you cannot use everything you've learned in the past.

Not everything that worked well in other companies will work in this particular company. So, the biggest misconception for me was thinking, “The more I learn, the more experience I gain in Human Resources, the stronger I will be in HR for any new company I work for.” In this case, it’s my own company. I had to know exactly what I could—

Lydia: What can be used, and what can't.

Mark: Exactly. What can be used and what cannot be used. If I stick with the same methods I’ve always used, and I know they don’t work with this particular company, then it is not going to work.

An example is how I used to look for specific skill sets and the right mindset. That’s great. Maybe at the end of an interview, I’d feel that the person looked great on paper and came across well during the interview. But my gut feeling would tell me something was off.

I didn’t trust myself. A lot of times, I ignored my gut feeling and trusted only what I had learned in the past, thinking, “This is correct. This is how interviewing should be done.” And I ended up hiring the wrong people.

So, that’s an example of how I may need to change my ways. I cannot use the same methods I used before.

No Room for Toxic Superstars

Lydia: So, you're building on this knowledge. To my last question, you're learning as you go how to recruit and identify what you're truly looking for in someone who will join your company. As you build your business and eventually let go of certain functions like Human Resources, if someone else has to take that on, is there a way for you to share best practices with them? Is there a way to pass on your method of curation?

Mark: What is the best practice, right? I will answer this broadly. To be a great Human Resources professional—whether you're a recruiter, Vice President of HR, or in any HR function—I think the most important ability is adaptability and flexibility with any situation you're dealing with.

For me, I completely changed—from working as a recruiter in a large corporate environment to leading a small startup of my own. The nature of this company is totally different. I can try to use the things I’ve done before, but I must adapt and tweak the way I work with people to make it effective.

There’s no right or wrong answer. But the more you do it, the better you understand the problems. Even now—after two years and a few months of running Ojisan Relaxing Station—we have grown quite fast. But every day, I’m still struggling with managing our staff. Sometimes they just quit without saying anything, even though they seemed happy.

So yes, it’s about learning each day—learning how to get better every day.

Lydia: And finally, Mark, what advice would you give to other founders about hiring the right people for their business?

Mark: As a founder myself, I believe that culture should come from the founder. You need to understand what kind of workplace you want to build—what kind of environment you want people to work in every day.

For me, I start with what I cannot tolerate. One thing I cannot accept is people who do not learn or who believe they already know everything. So, the culture I try to build—even though it’s not perfectly formed yet—is centered around learning. I do not hire anyone who doesn’t show a learning mindset.

I ask questions like: “What have you learned?” or “What do you do when you’re not learning anymore?” When you understand what you can’t accept, you prevent yourself from hiring people who don’t fit the future culture you’re trying to create. And if you can do that, you avoid letting a bad apple into your garden.

Lydia: What if they’re really good at their job and a top performer, but they don’t fit the culture?

Mark: Honestly, I’ve fired a lot of superstars. In my case, “superstar” can mean a therapist who gives excellent massages and is loved by customers. I’ve let go of many of these people. Why? Because they didn’t follow the rules. They didn’t help their teammates. I don’t care how many customers they bring in.

If you're going to build a sustainable business, you must always be able to replace those superstars. You can encourage customers to try other therapists. I don’t want to rely on people who are just good at their skillset but have the wrong mindset, personality, or values.

If someone’s values don’t align with the company culture, they shouldn’t be kept. They become a virus. They bring the team down and make the workplace toxic. I’ve seen this firsthand. I had one therapist who was excellent at massage, but very toxic. Eventually, that person made the entire team toxic. It’s not good.

Lydia: Well, thank you very much, Mark, for your time, your insights, and for spending time with us again. For those who want to connect with you, you’re Uncle Bear. Everyone can find you. Just share your contact details and the channel where you're most accessible, as well as your company.

Mark: Sure. If you live in Bangkok or plan to visit, you can search for Ojisan Relaxing Station. We have three branches right now in Bangkok. If you want to talk to me about anything related to business—how to build a company from being a corporate person to becoming an entrepreneur—just let me know.

You can always find me on LinkedIn. Just look for “Uncle Bear”—that’s me.

Lydia: Thank you very much, Mark. We have been in conversation with Mark Laothavornwong, founder and CEO of Ojisan Relaxing Station. Thank you so much for joining us, and stay tuned for more weekly episodes from all in Recruitment on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify.